Trevor Jackson is still a man on a mission, on a journey that he hopes will never end, believing his work is never done. His ethos, one of purist passion and unerring commitment to his multi-disciplinarian methods of creating catalogues of groundbreaking work, has witnessed him consistently presiding at the cutting edge of visual and audio culture on a global scale for three over decades now. His importance cannot be understated and his legacy is one that will stand the test of time.
TNO meet up with Mr Jackson at his Studio HQ in east London to talk states of mind, career highs and lows, and why the struggle is not only real but wholly necessary ...
Hello Mr Jackson …How are we?
All good man – thanks so much for asking me to do this …
Its our pleasure so lets go straight in …
Cool man hit me …
So you’ve managed to keep yourself to yourself to an extent minus too much influence from ‘the power and allure of the collective’ or being majorly part of a collective.
Would you say that individually you've benefited from maintaining your own style, which has become what you're revered for and what you're recognised for ?
Well I don't necessarily think I have a style to be honest, and I've consciously stopped myself from doing that as I try to evolve, as I always felt when I first started designing specific items, for example record sleeves, there was a company called Me company and they did things for Bjork and other people, but all their records looked exactly the fucking same.
I always thought that specifically working with the music, my ego should take a back seat, what I should be doing was trying to enhance the music. And so my focus was put upon the actual artists that I was making the music for, not myself, you know, I wanted to satisfy myself, but at that point I made a conscious decision to try and be as diverse as possible.
I think in many ways that's been to my detriment because I think that maybe in the past 10 years I have changed slightly and maybe I have consciously had more of a, a direction. Like I said, I think the detrimental thing is I think people wouldn't necessarily think “lets go to Trevor Jackson for that visual”, moreover I think that people come to me for an attitude more than anything else.
When designing sleeve / cover artwork, do you work with the people that made the music? Do you need to hear the music in advance of making the art? Is there any influence over your design that comes from the Sonic element?
Always. I mean, I think that early on, one of the first things I did was with S-Express, and that was I think maybe the second or third commercial job i ever did … but yes I heard the music in advance from Mark Moore
Which track was it?
Theme from S-Express. And so that's one of the first things I ever did and it was like “fuck that’s a number one record, which was mad” and I was like 18 or something. But as I say I'd heard the record, I met up with Mark Moore in the Wag club. I've always preferred to have a close relationship or a close ratio, it's important for me to have a conversation and to talk to the artist because I just want to get inside their heads. My approach to designing record covers has been to try to find out what makes them tick, what inspires them and use their inspirations to create something visually, you know? Peter Saville when referring to Unknown Pleasures famously says “Oh I never listened to the music before. I did the artwork” me, well I’m different … Describing music visually is my passion. That's what excites me you know.
Music is the most powerful form of communication there is. It transcends age, culture…Music is so incredibly powerful. Its the ultimate art-form.
Do you think visual culture or visual identity is louder metaphorically speaking than audio culture?
No, I think music is the most powerful form of communication there is. It transcends age, culture… Music is so incredibly powerful. Its the ultimate art-form.
So yeah, harking back to that, music being the most powerful art form, if you will. So louder than the visual culture associated with music …
They’re inextricably linked for me, music just is that powerful and generates an instant reaction, when people say they’re not really into music its infuriating as it has the ability to deeply, physically and emotionally effect people, Visuals are powerful of course but in a different way entirely … The immediacy of music, the fact that the way the brain translates music I think its a far shorter path from the ear to the brain whereas the eye to the brain probably goes through some kind of more far more complex, full processes, channelling and filtering. Whereas with music its boom straight in …
So its pure and visceral, as you say it's immediate, like a rabbit punch… So I suppose for me your work or the work which you've done, I would described as esoteric. I don't think it's made for everyone. I don't think it's meant to be understood by everyone, but it's public. Anyone can hear it or see it…
I’d like to invite you to talk about the music and the visual, I don't see it as too ‘pop’ or too, eager to to please, you're looking to enhance the product that you're working with. Is the term esoteric applicable to your work?
I don't know. I don't know how to take that, I'm not sure, I wouldn’t personally know how to describe my work. Ultimately, I mean, my approach hasn’t really changed and I’ve been doing this for 30 in fact over 30 years and to be honest in the beginning, my approach was to be as populist as possible at the beginning, which was late eighties, early nineties.
Regarding visual art and design it was all very traditional and centred around the authority and the ‘rules’ of design. At the time when I'm thinking, when I was growing up, you know, it was all about Swiss design in graphic design, we would talk specifically about schools of design, I was an arrogant teenager and I was like, I don't care about that. I'm into comic books. I'm into video games. I'm listening to incredible music, I'm getting fucked up every night going out just to hear music and find records. For me design shouldn't be about grids and fonts colours and, and printing techniques. It should just be direct and fun.
For me it was inspired by computer games, early computer games and comic books and I was knocking out sleeves rapidly, I'd be up all night making a record sleeve and I was just knocking them out so quickly … visually they were simplistic and they were direct, they were populist, I'd like to think my work is somewhat subversive even though it might not be raw cut ups or photocopier style graphics.
My work is deeply related to subculture and even though I'm a middle aged man now, it's as important to me as it ever was. And even though I work with big brands, it's more important to me more than ever that I feel my work has a purpose with everything I do. I think it needs to exist for a reason. I need to look at something in detail before committing, because I think does that deserve to exist? And I'm not blowing my trumpet, but I'm hard as fuck upon myself. You know, everything that goes out, I will scrutinise relentlessly.
Are you educating people in any way, shape or form in the social media age?
I think it's patronising to suggest or try to educate people visually at the moment. In terms of my approach however, I mean I feel strongly and confident as a visual designer now.
I've only recently become an avid Instagram user, and I've started to put more of my work up on Instagram so it can be seen. However, ironically the amount of work I see that looks fantastic, doesn't really say or mean anything though which I find frustrating…
But it’s the ability to find and discover things now that’s mind blowing - you can self educate so quickly…as an example in the late eighties - early nineties I was fascinated by Saul Bass, but then if I wanted to find out about Saul Bass, there were no books right there. It was impossible. I’d go to a library but no one had the books as it wasn’t on a college syllabus.
I had to go to the BFI library and go through microfiche machines to find out. I almost had to travel around the world trying to find books. It was almost impossible, really hard for me to locate the things I was inspired by…but it was the journey of gathering that information. Like “crate digging” that passion for discovering those things and the impact and the effect…the huge monumental impact these things had on my life through the process of trying to find them and eventually possessing these things, these artefacts from and about people that I adored. They had a huge impact on my whole thought process and on my work. But now within microseconds you can find about anything.
So is it fair to describe you in a way as an innovator, I think that's something that you probably want to apply to yourself or people would apply to you as a revered multi disciplinarian individual ?
No, I don't feel like I'm that, I don't think I've ever done anything particularly innovative. that's not even a humble brag, I just don't believe I'm an innovator. I believe I've been hugely lucky to be involved and present, I've been there for new romantic music. I've been there for house, for rave, I've been there for the birth of hip hop. I've been there through all the subcultures of British teenage movement…I've been so hugely fortunate to be there and play a part in some of these scenes be that musically or visually.
I don't think the defining people of these eras become as such through pure luck. I think talent and elements like you said before, you mentioned digging and discovery. These are two things that are applicable to record collectors, vinyl junkies, however, ostensibly discovery is the desire to find and discover the new from cultures and subcultures to sounds and visions, it seems so there's always been great depth to what you've sought to discover.
I think to say I am innovative is flattering, but I don’t think I am. I'd like to think that in some way I was subversive when I was involved in hip hop for instance, I could have thought, okay I want to make hip hop but it sounds like the rest of British hip hop, I don’t want the record covers to look like hip hop covers. I consciously said you know what, I don't want to appear the same as other genre based covers…as an example, Def jam records. So every thing I've been involved in I've tried to flip it. I've tried to find a gap. I've tried to find a way of doing something differently.
Well in contrast I'll say that in itself is fairly innovative because its declining the tradition and looking to go forward and turn things on its head. So maybe innovative is not something you take, but i would give you that!
Okay. Thank you. But you know when I think about innovators, I think about people that are solely, purely, completely original. As I said its the digging and the actual devotion, that whole process, the process of finding information, that was always huge to me.
I SPEAK MY MIND BECAUSE I’M NOT SCARED ABOUT PISSING PEOPLE OFF. I LIKE TO PROVOKE BY DIGGING INTO PEOPLE TO FIND OUT WHAT REALLY MAKES THEM TICK AND WHAT’S REALLY GENUINE, I LIKE PEOPLE THAT ARE GENUINE
So geographically you have a wide span where your work and influence can be seen from Japan, Africa to America to all over the world. You've sought out and you've been involved in not just sub cultures conducive to music or design, but also cultures you've immersed yourself in to in turn discover and rediscover. People now, they don't travel as much because like you said you can read about ‘the new’ at the touch of a button and people deem that as cultural experience however it really isn’t …
True say…but the most important thing personally is that I remain highly passionate about new things. I’d actually rather listen to new music as opposed to old music right now. I need to experience, I need to have new experiences, new sensations on a hourly basis. That's what excites me.
I guess I was fairly unique during the early 90s? In terms of the fact that there weren't many of us doing what I was seeking to do. I was making the visual and the music pre Apple pre-computer right. Which was fucking difficult, you know, it was really hard. I never used a sample CD in terms of music in my entire life. If I wanted to find sounds, I had to go through my records and find records, get synthesizers, drum machines, sample them. Now you pay $10 you have a library of everything. For me it's tragic.
So there's the age old ideology that anything good or great takes time to an extent, you know what I mean?
I have mentioned it many times before, I hate convenience. I don't want things to be easy as possible. I want things to be difficult for me. When things are difficult, it really sorts out the men from the boys. If things are fucking hard, then it's only the hardcore, it's only the fucking people that really care, that actually do it. You know, in many ways I have a reputation for being, what's the word … not arrogant, but very open. I speak my mind because I'm not scared about pissing people off because I like to provoke by digging into people to find out what really makes them tick and what's really genuine, I like people that are genuine …. so in terms of people's interests and what people are passionate about, I don't mind pissing people off because you can fight to find what’s right by pissing people off.
I resonate with struggling, and maybe my life has been, my life has been a fucking struggle in so many ways, but in the darkest times in my life, touch wood and fingers crossed, every time something really awful has happened to me. I've come out the other side, a better person. It's made me a stronger person and I've learned from everything I've done. And if life is fucking easy, how do you know things don't mean anything.
I like to think that if you are sub-culturally educated and engaged as a child growing up, you become a culturally aware adult…Sub cultural education comes about because you drive for something, there might be three people in your school or in your bullshit suburbia that you grow up with that were into the same thing. The key is to never be afraid and have courage in your conviction…I think for a while people were scared but I’m on board with the new generation…fearless!
I certainly think things are changing. I think we're going through a period now where it's okay to be different, which I think is really exciting. I think there's been a long period where people wanted to feel desperately to be part of something for various reasons, through the sensational nature of social media, or whatever. I think that people are desperate to be part of something special and change the game. I can see it. I can feel a movement of people sticking their heads up or be in all forms of creative medias where they're like, I want to do my own fucking thing. And that's super inspiring, you know? So I haven't lost hope in terms of musically led movements…I think there couldn't be a more exciting times to come for experimental music. I think there's so much amazing potential…
Talk to me about sample culture – something you’re very passionate about it …
Absolutely…I'm not a musician, but when it comes to sample culture, every single sample I used to use, I knew where it was from, an artefact of something which I had a passion for. And when I put it together, as an audio collage, it was something else. The juxtaposition of these things together was what excited me. So I had a kick drum from a miles Davis record, a keyboard sound from a throbbing gristle record, a high hat sound from a Pete Rock record. I'm like, fuck, this is the best band in the world I’m putting together…through sampling.
making music, it's saved me on so many occasions . It literally saved me from the most fucking dark places.
So nowadays you as a person, a father, a visceral creative … how do you think in a 360 way that you've changed within yourself?
I've noticed one thing and that’s that I'm confused. Like everyone else is confused. I'm not particularly confused about myself, but I'm confused about my place in the world you know right?
I'm not confused about what I do, what makes me tick, what I'm passionate about, my creative process for example, but I'm confused about my place in things because I embrace brand new music, which I'm fully aware is made by people that don't care where their sounds come from, or they don't care how easy it all is…
I would say that 80% of the stuff I've done, it's been more about conception …considered and scrutinised by me as my own worst critic. I haven't done enough stuff in my life which is about pure expression, you know?
So do you think there's a project, something coming that will arrive which will be more of a purist version of what you want to express rather than being … not held back in any sense of the word, but where you really put yourself on the line to deliver the ultimate expression of how you feel in that particular moment or would it be a gathering of 10 years of angst to express yourself?
I think musically yes, I've probably done more in my design that would be considered ultimately expressive, you know, I'm not an artist per se so as I said, most of the stuff I've done has been considered, that’s just who I am …but musically I always hark back to the best music I've made and that has always been in really dark times. It's been cathartic. Me making music, it's saved me on so many occasions . It literally saved me from the most fucking dark places. The old work I did. It's hard to listen to cause I'm taken back exactly to where my head was.
Surely in the midst of the darkness and mental anxiety all of this was created to turn on a proverbial light and move forward ?
I just remember being in bad places. I think, fuck, I'm just gonna put my headphones on and just make beats and just kind of get completely lost in music, it was an escape … pure escapism.. It nearly drove me fucking insane, you know, but undoubtedly saved me. So when you go back to the original question about the power of music and vision, nothing I've ever done visually has saved me. I've got great pleasure from it. But its music that has always provided the safety net and saved me…
So do you allow it to burden you until the relief of it comes out? In as much as it's saving you, it's heavy like a pack on your back because you're striving for perfection and then when it is out there and it's handed over and you're done with it, does it feel like you've got rid of a burden, something that has been weighing you down because you're so passionate that it has to be right?
I'm a realist…ever realistic. At that point when I've finally nailed it, the client might not even like it. So I, I kind of resigned myself to the fact that you cant please everyone…
It's all about problem solving to me, design and the music, a lot of great thinking and as I said the joy I get from actually solving any problem is beautiful, but it doesn't compare to the power of the transcendence of being completely lost in either someone else's music or my own…
For me music is alive and its living you know. The more I think about music, it's like I live it and breathe it…I think about the times I made and was involved in the creation of great records and then I've heard them in a club. Just the inimitable feeling of that emotion of hearing something you've done loud in the club or outdoors is the best.
Going back into design … and the principles of design, Dieter Rams has got 10 principles of design. What would be your principles of audio or your principle of graphic design? The first thing you take to it?
I exhaust every single angle I possibly can basically, within both areas. And again going back to that thing about suffering and just struggling for something, I push myself as hard as possible and every project I exhaust myself to the point of when I just can't do anymore. I like my clients to be happy, you know, satisfy the client and I try to approach it from a way of thinking that the consumer, the general man on the street is going to get it and it translates and hope it communicates to them too…
Do you always get self satisfaction out of your work or do you leave a body of work that you presented to a client and feel it hasn't quite satisfied your standards?
I would never deliver anything to anyone that I wasn't happy with, but I've made the mistake of presenting too many things and, and the thing that I like the most, they discount and choose the worst one, and that's happened so many times which is deflating to the creator…
Realistically, you only get good work out there if your clients are good. So if you have a shit client, someone that's not visually literate or sonically literate, you'd never get what you want…
When people come to you to buy into what you're about when they understand the subculture or the culture you come from, then it's always going to be a better experience.
What is it that makes you the most content regarding seeing your work out there … Is it an album cover a skate deck or the Guggenheim !! Is there an environment where you enjoy seeing what you’ve created and understand its having a visual impact on people …
Im proud to know the journeys that my work has been on and where it has ended up but I think most of all, and ideally speaking, I just want the person seeing my work to have an experience. It doesn’t really matter to me how or where that may be, but the word experience is really important here, because I think now more than ever, I think physical, visceral experiences are the most important thing outside of the digital realm…club experiences to great music have the same level of importance and impact to me also…hearing that jam and letting go…having an experience whether it be visual or audible.
So speaking of music again …what would you say is your ultimate musical grounding?
Well to be honest i grew up with punk, new wave and new romantic music, but in terms of what really hit me and captivated me well that’s got to be Hip Hop. As a genre and a lifestyle it presented me with so much, not just its attitude, it actually taught me, it introduced me crate digging and sampling, trying to find things, trying to do things differently…it took me on many adventures and introduced me to so much and so many people…it also taught me to push myself and to get better at what I was doing in music and my design work, it’s a genre that’s steeped in being competitive…outdoing yourself and others striving to be better .. that’s very much Hip Hop, battling constantly !
I remember at school there was always that school report mantra ‘should and could do better’ it’s a shit thing to be told as a kid but weirdly as an adult has made me want to do more … to battle as you say!
Yeah no shit man, I’m always pushing myself to do better…I can never let myself rest on my laurels you know, ‘easy’ isn’t a word I identify with…it should never be easy…But now I'm proud of where I am. I'm proud and comfortably happy…I might not have half a million followers on Instagram but I'm fully aware of me and everything I do and it keeps me grounded. The most important thing to me is I'm still fucking here doing this. Like I said, I might not be on half a million followers on social media, but I've been doing this for over 30 years…And its what I love.
Are you satisfied generally ?
So in terms of satisfaction, I don't look back on my work and feel satisfied if you will, moreover I just feel glad that I'm still doing it, I'm still doing what I think is interesting work. I'm still working with good people in the fields I’m in, you know, so that's an achievement and that satisfies me…I’m not lost and I don’t want to get lost – I like how I operate, it suits me…I don’t need constant attention or accolades to believe in what I do and pursue my goals…I don’t need the hype its too exhausting…
Yeah I agree – our modus operandi at The New Order is to slow things down from an editorial perspective, allocate time and passion to what we do and look to a more long-form premise … we want to be the beautiful savoured slow cooked meal not the disposable fast food option … by slowing it down we can cut through the noise and request that people take their time to indulge in what we do and our approach, I would say that goes for the majority of creative disciplines … most things of great quality, things that are revered and respected take time right ?
Sure and I agree man, its important to create for the right reasons and respect the process, that in itself should and does take time, part of the struggle, everyone’s path is different but the struggle is real across the board...I mean I enjoy the battle, there’s certainly a competitive streak in me, as I said previously, probably born out of my involvement in Hip Hop yet there’s also a humility that allows me to be thankful for where I am, who I am and what I’m doing…there’s a conflict, a juxtaposition but overall I’m also just incredibly grateful…
Can’t ask for more than that can you…Thanks so much for this man, pleasure to chat and catch up with you sir!